does everyone else think RTG slots have become tighter than tight? I can't seem to hit a bonus game and then when I do, don't get diddly squat.......If you are winning, WTG to you!!!
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IS IT JUST ME OR?
- Thread starter krystalkitty
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I'm sorry Alex, I dont agree.In these trying times for online gambling, and all the fees associated with the business, I have no doubt the casinos have tightened the games to a new high All I have to do is play, and I can see the difference. Getting a bonus is almost impossible, and then the bonus round literally leaves you laughing it is so small. RTG like any other platform, has likely tightened up to combat the lack of deposits, processing fees, etc. Just my opinion. PamAlex wrote: I think it's not the slots but your luck became a little tighter
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I wonder, does somebody control them? Is there any legislation that controls their policy in gambling and players? Sometimes I feel that players are being robbed. I can't say anything about RTG but others similar firms change rather often. I didn't pay attention before because it was always about having fun but now I am becoming more aware...
PSP
Ruler of Western Civilization's Geeky Nerds
That's one of the problems with online casinos - the regulation ranges from strict / legitimate to who needs regulation? . There is no consistent standard under which all casinos must operate. The closest thing to consistent regulation comes from the software providers, but even that is nebulous at best.As a result, most casinos can set how tight or loose their games are without much fear of retribution. They can't be so tight that no one ever wins otherwise no one will play there, but what it seems to come down to is that in order to cash out, the players have to win twice - once with the machines and then with the Finance Dept
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PSP
Ruler of Western Civilization's Geeky Nerds
One interesting sign that the RTGs are tighter than they used to be is visible in their Freeroll tournament results. I had kind of assumed that the freeroll tournaments were a way to promote the casino while at the same time showing the players that they could win money if they played those games.As a result, it used to be that you could expect to score close to the starting balance - if you started with $5,000, your final score would be close to $5,000. I just checked the scores at 4 different casinos in their freeroll tournaments involving 4 different games. The percentage of players who ended up with a score at or above the starting total is right around 20%.That's pretty pathetic! The average median score (in a tournament with 500 players, the score that comes in 250th) for today's tournaments is:Casino Titan 50.6% of the starting balanceSlots Jungle 54.9% of the starting balanceWinPalace 56.7% of the starting balanceWith those rates of return, it won't be long before you are toast ...
I was thinking it was me. Usually I can play for awhile. I had a balance of 500 still working towards to play through doing one dollar spins hardly hit any bonus rounds and when I did they paid very little. I think I have to quit for awhile. If anyone see's the RTG casinos turn around let me know.
Very interesting PSP, and I am glad you brought it up. The part about the tourneys.They certainly are not advertising for the casino thru thier Freerolls. I simply cannot get a decent score. I mean some one has to win, but looking at the top scores lately, even the top score is lower than I have ever see them. Used to be 75000 and around that figure. Now the winner is able to have a much lower score to win. Anyone else notice that the top scores are lower than usual?I still play the Rushmore tourney freeroll for depositing players. I start out with $15000 and 15 minutes. In all that time and with all that money, for the last three weeks I have not been able to get a bonus round. Not even once. Now that is tight. Pam
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Yesterday played the tourney at Rushmore....No bonus round either....Usually I go in at least once or twice or used to anyway....I think I had $5600 in the end.....
PSP...I rarely disagree with anything you say, and I am not now, but as I go thru my work here at the forum I come across names of 'jurisditions so to speak that are supposed to be where the casino are licensed and regulated. So they have to answer to someone else besides themselves. Antigua - World's First Online Gambling Jurisdiction The Kahnawake Gaming Commission Curacao Gaming Commission The Gaming Commission of Malta Gibraltar Gaming Commission & Authority The Alderney Gambling Control Commission I am familar with the second one and it is a big name in the licensing and regulation of many sites I am familar with. Who can explain exactly what the role is of these commisions with the online gaming sites. Licensing? Regulation? Fair Play? Pam
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PSP
Ruler of Western Civilization's Geeky Nerds
Pam, I think that you are assuming that a Gaming Commission means that there is oversight.Let's use the Virtual Group as an example (Cirrus, Cool Cat, etc). They have always been (allegedly) regulated by a Gaming Commission in Costa Rica. As most of us came to discover early on, that casino group was going to come up with a reason not to pay you. It simply didn't matter what you did, there was ALWAYS something wrong regardless of how petty or ludicrous it might be. There were a ton of complaints when Belgamo brought them back here on probation because virtually no one trusted them to do the right thing. It seems that maybe they've improved a bit, but where was that Costa Rican Gaming Commission this entire time?We forget that in a large portion of the world, a few well placed (insert currency of choice) can make many officials temporarily blind or deaf to complaints raised by players. After that, what recourse do any of us really have other than not playing at that casino anymore?Are there some reputable gaming commissions? Sure, and they tend to regulate the more legitimate casinos that are favored here, but I'd have to say that those are the exceptions to the norm.
Ahhhh, yes, once again you make sense . For sure there is a gaming commision, but how in God's name is it actually regualting anything when casinos like Virtual group are still in buisness. So true.How about the payout percentage? They are supposed to be regulating that as well. Now granted, that doesnt mean you will get paid, but there is supposed to be a chance to win at least.As I think back, I never go and play at a sh***y casino just becuase I know there is some gaming commision supposedly behind me. Right now, it means very little doesnt it.Thanks for the reply. Awesome insight as always. Pam
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True. I know this system from my own experience when even my employers delay payments and pay only after a dozen of my letters (I work as a free-lancer). What can be said about casinos then?....
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And they are. Here's a nice little summary I found at <a href="http://sunshine-slots.com/Percentage-Payout-reports.html" >Sunshine Slots</a>. In order to find the online casino payout reports for Vegas Technology Casinos that are not posted online, you can contact customer support and request the latest reports. The audits are conducted monthly by Certified Fair Gambling. In addition, look for the CFG Seal on the main page of these casinos.In the case of Microgaming casinos, you will find the eCOGRA Seal of Approval on the main page of their websites. If you click on the logo, the certificate will pop up providing you with the latest online casino payout report. If not, be sure to contact the support team and ask for it to be sent to you.Real Time Gaming casinos utilize Technical Systems Testing or TST, a logo which can also be found on the main page of these casinos. To receive a copy of the online casino payout report, contact customer support.
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Thank you Mben, for that information. I knew they were out there, but for the life of me could not think of the names, or how to go about getting them.With that said, and if things are being regulated for a payout percentage:Why are we all continuing to lose our deposits in record time? Has there ever been a way to prove or disprove that the casinos in fact can tighten and loosen the slots, and still pass regulation? As long as they stay within a certain payout percentage?I hope this makes sense, and thanks again for the infne of the greatest things here at the forum is being able to learn and share information. Pam
ne of the greatest things here at the forum is being able to learn and share information. Pam
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Pam, you ask Why are we all continuing to lose our deposits in record time? Let me ask this .............. are we always playing our same games? Or are we moving all around within the lobbies? I play the same games over and over and over and hardly ever go play others. Will this make a difference as far as how we see the casino paying us out? I don't know, I'm just asking.
You gave me something to think about for sure.Perhaps the casinos have not tightened the reels as we all suspect.I do always play the same games, over and over again, and you are right, that could easily be the reason we are losing.I suppose before we always assume the casinos to be tighter, we should/ could look at our own habits/routines/actions while playing for an alternative answer.It is for sure possible. Pam
I play all over the board!! Same thing....lose, lose and lose!!! I don't care what anyone says, they certainly have been tighter, than tight for me!! I used to do 1-4 screenshots a month with wins over $300.00! Been awhile since I got one
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PSP
Ruler of Western Civilization's Geeky Nerds
Mben, the numbers in that Sunshine link are a little deceptive - IMO, they paint a rosier picture than is the case because most people really don't understand statistics.I took a look at one of the freeroll tournaments on Casino Titan and did an analysis of the results just to give us an idea of what that 95% return number really means.The tournament I looked at was the 5/31/2011 11:00AM 500 player / $5,000 bankroll Goldbeard tournament. They registered 500 players, but only 414 played. Of the 414 players, 7 scored less than 1,000 which might indicate that they had connection problems, got a phone call, or just really suck at this game , so I discarded their results. If you've ever tried to look at the leaderboard on one of these tournaments, it refreshes every few seconds so that it's tough to see any particular scores past the top 10. As a result, I counted how many score were in each 1,000 point increment and calculated as those each score was in the middle of that range toward the grand total. For example, there were 5 scores between 10,000 and 10,999 so to make the calculations faster and easier, I multiplied 5 X 10,500 to get an approximate total for that range - not exact, but close enough for this quick and dirty analysis. Since it was easy to do the top 10 with real numbers, I used the actual figure for that.Make sense so far? OK, here is what I found as a total points earned by players who fell into each 1,000 point range: <table style="width:224px;height:351px;" border="1" align="center">Top 10239,19016,00016,50015,00031,00014,00058,00013,00054,00012,00075,00011,00057,50010,00052,5009,00066,5008,00093,5007,000142,5006,000117,0005,00077,0004,000189,0003,000231,0002,000267,5001,000106,500 That came to a total of 1,874,190 earned by 404 players. Each player had approximately 50 paid spins for a total somewhere over 20,000 spins. The AVERAGE return for each player was just over $4,639, or 92.78%That sounds like a pretty good return, doesn't it? NOT SO FAST! Let's look at it in a couple of slightly different ways:Tournaments are a good way to analyze this data because everyone gets the same number of spins for their money (give or take). As a player, while the average return is important, my real question is how likely am I to win? If I can't win, how likely am I to at least break even or close to break even? With an average return over 90%, you'd think that it was pretty likely that you'd do OK, but that's not the case.Instead of being concerned about the average return, you really need to look at the median score - the score at which half the players are going to finish with more than you and half with less than you. That number is this tournament was 3,268, or 65.4% of your initial bankroll - doesn't sound like 90% anymore, does it?Well, that was kind of terrible - so let's look at it another way. How likely am I to break even? Out of 404 players, 118 had 5,000 or more - that's 29.2%. That means that over 70% of the players didn't break even - even worse than the median.Is it possible to win? Absolutely! Can they tighten the machines and still come in with average return numbers that look promising? You bet they can!
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Makes perfect sense to me.... Is it possible to win? Absolutely! Can they tighten the machines and still come in with average return numbers that look promising? You bet they can! Thanks for your research PSP...it is appreciated!!!
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Holy Cow PSP, that is some work you did on this post. I had to read it a few times thru as I really wanted to understand it .That was one of my original l questions, was even with the regulation of the payout percentage, can the casino still tighten those reels and come out that they can still pass regulation.I see that it is possible by your analysis.Thanks again for the hard work on this post. It was so interesting to read. Pam
I forgot to include the title of the summary I grabbed from that site ................. How to Locate the Online Casino Payout Reports </h2>I posted how to find the payout reports, not here are the numbers... . After about 7 hours straight on the forum yesterday, your numbers were a little hard to follow, so forgive me for not replying last night. And I need a little bit of time this morning to really understand it completely. And as Pam and KK said, thank you for your hard work and research . </h2>
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My psychiatrist told me I was crazy and I said I want a second opinion. He said okay, you're ugly too How funny is that. I laughed so hard when I actually read it It's kinda like the one where this fellow with a crippled hand prays, God please make my hand like the other one....The other then became crippled....I know not really funny, but is It's really a joke for one to see....
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PSP
Ruler of Western Civilization's Geeky Nerds
I'll forgive you - just this once The link you gave showed us how to find the numbers, but it also had the numbers for a couple of casinos on it. I surmised that those were probably representative of the online casino industry in general - even the brick and mortar casinos usually claim a 95%+ return. The point of my post was to show that the return percentage doesn't really mean much to an individual player.Yes, I agree - the numbers were hard to follow. I was forced to use the method I used because the leaderboad would refresh every 5 seconds or so.The ideal method would have been to add up the scores of all 407 players, but since that wasn't feasible I came up with a way to estimate what the total was. I broke the scores down into 17 groups, estimated what the total was for each group, then added those 17 numbers together to get the total.Here's a specific example - A total of 5 players had scores between 10,000 and 10,999. Those specific 5 scores added up to a total of 52,875. My way of estimating the total for this group was to say that each player got a score right in the middle of the range or 10,500. Using this, I came up with a total for this group of 52,500 - close enough for this purpose.Instead of looking up the individual scores, all I had to do was count how many players were in each 1,000 point range - for example, the highest ranked player with at least 4,000 was #119 and the lowest ranked was #160. That is 42 players. Using my estimation, each of those 42 players averaged 4,500 so the total was 189,000So, the left column of the 2 columns represents which group the players were in and the right column is the estimated total of all the players in that group. Next to the left column that says 4,000 you'll find 189,000 - the estimated total that we calculated above.I threw all of this information just to give everyone an idea how i came up with the numbers, but honestly that wasn't the important part of the post. The important part was to understand that the return percentage really doesn't mean much. If the return rate is 95%, then if you make a million spins at $1/spin, you can expect to have around $950,000 after those million spins - but what if you only make 50 spins? What can you reasonably expect then?This is where the information from the tournament is so valuable. While you may not play the machines like you do in the tournaments, it's still much more representative of real world play than a million spins at $1/spin. It's very easy to find the 2 numbers that should mean the most to any one player - the median score and the break even percentage.The median score is that score in the exact middle of all the players who played the game - half will do better and half will do worse. This should not be confused with the average score because much less than half of the players will make the average score or more. The break even (or better) percentage is really what should be important - how likely are you to win or at least break even.OK, so what were those numbers?AVERAGE SCORE 4,639 after 50 spins ea. 31.4% of the players made the average score or better, which means that 68.6% of the players didn't - and even at the average score, you were still losingMEDIAN SCORE 3,268 after 50 spins ea. After only 50 spins, the average player only had 65.4% of their bankroll left. This is the best indication of how long your bankroll is going to lastBREAK EVEN (or better) 118 players out of 407 or 29%I hope that this helped P.S. One thing that I didn't discuss in the initial post which could give everyone a little hope:Yes, it is possible for the casinos to make the machines tighter and still keep the return percentage high. In order to do that, the casinos have to keep the average return percentage the same while dropping the median.What does that mean to the average player? It means that if you DO get lucky and win, you are much more likely to win BIG!
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So basically, PSP, you are saying that even though the casinos say they are regulated by such and such group and can spit out a payout percentage report, we will never win in the end just because they have those in place.I see the percentages that you calculated are all less than the normal payout percentages of 92% and higher that the casinos claim they are set for their games. We will come out ahead or at least break even if we are lucky enough to be in the lower percents of your calculations. Right?
PSP
Ruler of Western Civilization's Geeky Nerds
That's pretty much the deal Mben.The deck is clearly stacked against you, but there is that small chance that you might win - and if you're REALLY lucky, you might hit that special little segment that gets paid substantially more just to get the overall return rate to remain about the same.So, it's not ALL bad news
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